 TRANSCRIPT OF Interviewer: Rita Pearce, a graduate student of the Elliott School of Communication at Wichita State University. Interviewer: Today is Thursday, July 9, 1998. The time is 2:15 p.m. I am Rita Pearce, a graduate student at the Elliott School of Communication at the Wichita State University. This afternoon I am interviewing Esther Wenzel, a resident of Larksfield Place. Larksfield Place is a retirement community in Wichita, Kansas. This interview is taking place in Mrs. Wenzel’s apartment, E-229. This interview is being conducted as part of the I, Witness to History program. Mrs. Wenzel, would you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Wenzel: Yes, I’d be glad to. I have always lived in Wichita. I was born here, April 20, 1912, and I’m one of four daughters. My father built a big two-story house in the seventh block of South Broadway (then Lawrence Avenue). When the third girl came along, and we lived there all of our lives. My mother lived there until she had to go into a nursing home. That was always our home. We had a fourth sister, then, who came along a little later in life, and we four girls in the family were very close. We had lots of fun together. My grandfather, one of my grandfathers was a builder, and he built us a playhouse—a two-room playhouse that was the center of our activity whenever the weather was good, of course. We had two rooms in our playhouse. We had a doorbell on the front door; our mother made pretty curtains for the windows and door; and we had a little shelf on the outside where we kept our pots and flowers and things. And, of course, we always had kitties, so the kitties were dressed up, and put in the doll buggies, and we had our doll buggies, play furniture, chairs, and playthings in the playhouse always, so that was the center of our activities. But, we had a great time. When it came time for school, we were very fortunate. My father had chosen the location on South Broadway although now, of course, as you know, it’s in the center of town, but he chose that because it was close to Carlton School which was just three blocks away. That was so convenient for us as we were growing up. I attended Central Intermediate School and then Wichita High School North where I graduated in the first class in 1930. When it came time for college, my two older sisters were both sent to Lindenwood College in St. Charles, Missouri, a finishing school for girls. When I came along, the third one, we were in the depths of the depression, as you know, and so my father, after a lot of investigation, decided that Wichita University was a very good place for me to go. So that’s what I did. I had four wonderful years there. One of the main reasons for my trip to Europe at the time I went in 1936, I had been teaching. I taught a year, and then my father thought it would be good if I would have a year away, where I would learn not to lose my purse, and I could be more independent. So, that was one of the reasons why we chose this trip. Mr. Strong Hinman, who was , head of physical education in Wichita, Kansas, school was the man who was the director of this trip. It was a wonderful experience, and one I shall never forget, of course.
Interviewer: OK. when it was decided that you would go to Wichita State as opposed to the finishing school like your two older sisters, did you mind that very much? Wenzel: No. I didn’t mind it at all. In fact, I was delighted because most of my friends were going there, you see. Interviewer: Oh. Wenzel: So I didn’t mind at all, and, of course, we didn’t know we were deprived. I guess we were in those years of the depression. We were deprived of lots of things probably, but we didn’t know it because we had such a good time, and it was a wonderful experience—I loved every minute of it. Interviewer: That part? (Laughs.) Wenzel: Yes. So I don’t feel I missed a thing (laughs). Interviewer: So, when you were—when you talked about that playhouse, I’m curious to know—did you have any furniture in it?. Wenzel: Oh, yes! We had tables and chairs. We had, of course, doll beds, and, we kept all of our toys there, in the good weather. It was a good-sized little house, and, as I say, that was a place where the children of the neighborhood liked to play, of course. There were cupboards built in each room, where we kept our play dishes. There were 2 windows in the front room and 3 in the back room. My Mother kept pretty little curtains at the windows. We kept the little playhouse in the family for years, and it was not until, oh, in the—I guess about in the nineteen hundred and seventy, I suppose. The last grandchild was finished using it. We would put it on a truck, and move it to the next house where the newest arrivals came, and they would have the playhouse to use because it was just a treasure, you know. We didn’t want to let anything happen to it, and finally it was sold at the last house, but we kept it for years a nd years.
Wenzel: But we kept the little playhouse in the family for years, and it was not until, oh, in the—I guess about in the nineteen hundred and ninety, I suppose. The last grandchild was finished using it. We would put it on a truck—they would, some of the family and move it to the next house where the newest arrivals came, and they would have the playhouse to use because it was just a treasure, you know. We didn’t ever want to let anything happen to it, and finally it was sold at the last house, but we kept it for years and years. It was great. Interviewer: Oh, how neat! Your family—your mother and your dad—growing up with them, what was that like? Wenzel: My mother was the homemaker. My father was always busy with his business and, she was, he kind who wasn’t interested in club things much. As she always said , she had four girls at home, and that was enough to keep anybody busy, and she was wonderful. She always entertained our teachers (laughs) once a year with a luncheon—that was part of her project. Interviewer: Oh. Wenzel: And, of course, in those days with four girls, you know, well, no, you wouldn’t know, but in that time, the older girls always brought home scarlet fever, measles, and all of those kinds of things, you know to the other two of us. And, my poor mother would have us quarantined. We were laughing the other day about that (laughs). Someone said, "Do you remember when people used to be quarantined in their houses, and someone from the city would come and put a big plaque on the front door that said, ‘Keep Out?’’ Well, that’s the way it was when I grew up. We could not get vaccinations for all the childhood disases. How fortunate the children are today. And it would be diphtheria or scarlet fever or whatever it was and it seemed like we got everything. But, anyway, my mother, of course, was a homemaker, and she stayed home. My father, was a—what he’d be called now was a food broker. Interviewer: Oh. Wenzel: And he was in the food business, and he bought and sold carload lots. So he’d had a—he’d had a warehouse on North Rock Island. The location of the warehouse was exactly where the farm and art market is today. Interviewer: Oh! Wenzel: And we girls sold it a few years back. But it, —that was the kind of business he had, and so it was a demanding business, and he didn’t take much time on vacations, but we had--one of our sisters had a, —had eczema so badly in the summer time, and she was very allergic to things, so the doctor suggested we go to Colorado. So my grandmother and grandfather who lived in Wichita, also, would, —my grandfather by that time was retired and he would drive us to Colorado, and that was our project. W e went every summer the minute school was out. We were packed—our trunks were packed—and we were ready to leave for Colorado, and we went to Colorado Springs to stay in a cottage. We always rented a cottage out there. There were other children. It was a good place for children to be, and so year after year we went. We traveled a lot through Colorado, of course, and enjoyed the mountains, but that’s the way we spent our summers always for years and years, all through our childhood. Interviewer: Did you have any "characters" in your family? Wenzel: Oh, yes, of course. My grandfather was a, the builder who built the playhouse, he was Swedish. He was my step-grandfather, and my real grandfather had been killed earlier—had died earlier, and this is a step-grandfather, and we were so attached to him because he was so good to us girls, and, as I say, would drive us to Colorado, but he was quite a character, and when the—quite a person ahead of his times. I have a record that my father wrote recording, of whether he has in one of his "work and weather’’ diaries about the fact that he was going to buy an automobile. My mother, of course, always had a horse and buggy when they first married. And my father didn’t know about automobiles. He wasn’t so very keen about them at first. So he had a notation there that his father-in-law is going to buy an automobile. And, he did. And he got a Hudson Super-Six. You probably never heard of it. They were great big touring cars, and, of course, you know, they could pile us all in there. That was just great. Interviewer: And the luggage? Wenzel: And the luggage—the trunks, yes, they went on the outside. Interviewer: Oh. Wenzel: They were roped on the outside—on the running board. There was always a running board. And so we would go to Colorado. We’d dress—you had to dress for camping out. There was usually not—we had to stay overnight. It was usually a long trip, you know to Colorado Springs. So, we would have to camp out, and we girls, when we got to be girl scouts, would always wear out scout outfits or our bloomers, we called them in those days, you know, and your socks. Oh, it was quite an outing. So we had those trips, and we thought they were wonderful. My! We just loved ‘em, and he was so good to (laughs) take us on trips through the mountains, and through the West. We had many nice trips with him, but he—we always said—was the character of the family. He loved Shakespeare—loved Shakespeare, and he, he was lots of fun. Loved jokes—quite a storyteller. Interviewer: Did you learn some of Shakespeare just by listening to him, or . . .? Wenzel: Well, I inherited his set of Shakespeare, which was nice. Interviewer: Um-hmm. Wenzel: And, yes, I think we all learned a lot from him. He was a very interesting person (laughs). My father used to say it was really something having four girls. And, he, he . . . see, I was always "Jack." I was the third girl, and I was always Jack because I was "named" Jack. They decided that this would be the boy. Interviewer: -h. Wenzel: And, it was not so, but I was always Jack all my life. We always laughed about that because his business friends always called me that (laughs). Interviewer: (Laughs.) Wenzel: But it was a happy, happy childhood. We had lots of wonderful times. Interviewer: If there was a moral that you kept getting in your childhood, and it was repeated—was there one of those? Wenzel: Oh, my, mother, of course, and father both were (laughs)—they thought we should never leave to, for, ‘til tomorrow what you could do today. You should do it. If it had to be done, do it now. And, they (laughs) they thought that we should strictly mind the rules. They never thought that we should , do some things that some of the others did. It was always fun—funny—they would say if we girls could always go to a party, then it was alright for the others to go, so I grew up in a strict home, but it was wonderful. I didn’t mind it at all. They were those kind of parents that were wonderful to us. We didn’t mind that—our strict upbringing. Interviewer: So, along the way, where did you meet your husband. Wenzel: I met my husband at the University. Interviewer: Oh, you did? Wenzel: Yes, at the university at a sorority party, and he , went there three years and then graduated at the University of Chicago—law school—went up there to study law, and so we were together we were engaged several years before we were married, but we met here, and then he went on to school and finished up there. But I had my four years here at Wichita U.—all of it. Interviewer: So that would have been right before 1936 when you made that trip. Wenzel: Um-hmm. I graduated in 1930 actually. Interviewer: 1930. Wenzel: 1930, uh-huh. Interviewer: From WSU. Wenzel: Yes, um-hmm. I mean 1934. OK, I graduated from high school in 1930, and graduated from Wichita U. in 1934. Um-hmm. Interviewer: So then you went over there in about 1936. Wenzel: Um-hmm, yes, I taught a year. Interviewer: Were you intending to stay longer than you stayed? Wenzel: No. No, we went for two months, and that was a long time (laughs). Interviewer: How long did it take you to travel? Wenzel: Seven days—it took it seven days to get there—longer, you see, than they do now. Interviewer: Um-hmm. So it took seven days to travel? Wenzel: To travel, yes. They go so much more quickly now—five days for most of the ships, but I went on a big old ship that had been The Emperor when the German people had owned it. Britain claimed it, and it became a Cunard liner, and was renamed the Bereugeria when it was redone. And, so it was an older ship, very large ship, it was divided into all classes, and, you understand, we went as students, and students don’t go ever first or second class. They go usually third class (laughs). And, so that’s the way we went. Not exactly luxuriously, but very nice, and if you were fortunate enough to have friends in second class or first class, you were invited to go up there with them, and have dinner and dance or whatever, and you could enjoy the better parts of the ship (laughs). But otherwise there were gates across the ship and they were really secluded. You weren’t supposed to go out of your area. Interviewer: Well, when you were wanting to go to a different part of the ship, and had an invitation, how did you—were there people guarding it? How did you show them that . . ." Wenzel: Oh, well, they would say that "my friends here are my guests," and so a person could go that way, but it was (laughs) so foolish. I mean it seems foolish because they don’t do it anymore, but, in that day, of course, there was steerage, too. So many passengers on these great big ships. So we were in a lower part of the ship. We had very comfortable quarters. There were four of us in a cabin, you see. Two berths on one side—two berths on the other side—one upper and one lower. And, so four of us girls roomed together in a cabin. It was not exactly luxurious, but we were lucky to have friends in the other classes (laughs), and we often went there, but even, in spite of the fact, that it was not the best class, we dressed formally for dinner in the evening. All the evenings except first and last. They do that on ships because the first night you are not unpacked, and the last night you are packed up again. So it was good and we had lots to do. There were lots of things on the ship, and we were traveling with other students from all over the country, which was interesting. You see, this was a trip from the University of Michigan graduate school. It was affiliated with Pocano Tours—that’s what they were called. And they had an affiliation with a lodge in a little town Oetzausteria, Austria. I can show you the picture that I have here on the wall of the little town—dear little town right in the heart of the Austrian Alps—not too far from Beardis Garden where Hitler had his hideaway—beautiful part of the Alps. And, they had taken over—the school had taken over this big lodge I called it. It was just this great, big building and it had a big center hall, and big sun porch; that’s where many of the classes were held. They always started everyday with a German class. And we learned, tried to learn to speak a few phrases that would be helpful. They had a young man from the University of Vienna who was our teacher, our German teacher. And, then they had people from all of the countries from Central Europe who would send representatives to lecture. And, we had lectures by a man from the Chamber of Deputies in France, and from parliament (and Britain), and from all the different countries were represented. We even had—sometimes if it was a gorgeous day and a little bit warmer, we would go out on one of the hillsides. It was so beautiful and had sometimes our music classes out there. The Vienna Orchestra sent some artists who gave concerts and sometimes we’d have those out on the hillside, which was just lovely and interesting. We lived in homes of the peasants. And that way we got the feel of the country in a way that you don’t any other way. So we stayed--my room mate and I—happened to be lodged in a dear little house, very quaint, very simple, but immaculately clean, and we had a nice room of twin beds, tables, a table and chairs, and, of course, a great big bed with a feather mattress and it was very comfortable. The curtains—I was always so impressed with the lady’s curtains. They were so lovely, and, of course, all handmade, you know, with great insets of fillet lace that were beautiful. Did you know they do such lovely handwork. But it was so interesting, the man of the house was a leather-worker, in the little village—what impressed us, I (laughs) noticed I had written several times in my diary, they lived such a simple life and had so few things, as we say in America that we would think would be necessities. They didn’t have them, but they were so happy. They didn’t have a town paper, but the Bergherstraisser or the mayor would get up, go to the town pump, and that’s where they all gathered. And, he would read a paper, a newspaper to them every morning if they come—cared to listen. And, so they would come there and listen. Most of the men smoked their pipes after breakfast and listened to the Bergerstraisser read the paper. So, it was a very simple life. At Sunday—when Sunday came, my, that was a quiet day and they did dress up for their church. They had dances. They would put on their folk dances for us. And, they were very, very friendly. They loved having the school there, and loved it all. But, of course, from time to time, German groups of German soldiers marched through the town. And that made a hush on everything. They didn’t molest the people at the time, but they were aware that they were there. Interviewer: Did they not go out as much when the German soldiers were there? Wenzel: Oh, they went--it was alright if they went about their business. We were even in the hotels. We were entertained royally by the students of Berlin and at balls and parties. And, you never knew when a group of soldiers would come strolling through to look around, and make you mindful that they were there, which was that ominous overtone that we had, wondering what was going to come. But the little village of Oetz was very interesting to be in. We were there for two weeks as we studied and had our work, and, then, of course, we had lecturers that were with us as we went from country to country, and they explained the things about the different places to us so it was a real study tour. The University of Michigan granted five hours for graduate credit. Interviewer: Did they? Wenzel: Um-hmm. Interviewer: Was the accent on how the living was in those different countries—was it on music, was it on . . .? Wenzel: it was on politics. Interviewer: On politics? Wenzel: it was on politics greatly. Interviewer: Oh. Wenzel: Because, people were concerned. They didn’t—they had to be very careful what they said, but they were concerned. And we visited the beer hall in the basement in Munich where Hitler first came to power. That’s where he would give these talks of his—tirades on things, and, you see, there had been 36 political parties in Germany at that time—36! Inflation was terrible. Conditions were bad. I remember John’s mother and father were Germans, of course had been to Europe about that time, and they said they practically got a bushel basket of German marks back when they would go to the store to buy anything. Inflation was just terrible. And, you see, the people were so craving a better economy and better conditions and that’s how of course he (Hitler) got to power—never dreaming that he’d do what he did. But, anyway, it was, I would say, we got the political feeling. I know when I got back my father’s Rotarians—Rotary friends were very interested in the politics, how people thought about it all. They were concerned, but they didn’t know what to think. So, it was politics, and, of course, the way they lived. We learned a lot about that. Interviewer: And, that was in each of the countries that you . . .? Wenzel: Um-hmm, yes, each one. See, we went clear on up to Finland to Helsinki, and then we rode very far north from there, clear, almost to the Arctic Circle—a long way where we read a lot and took a Finnish bath. Interviewer: What is that? Wenzel: Have you ever taken a Finnish bath? Well, that’s interesting (laughs). Interviewer: What is a Finnish bath? Wenzel: Finnish bath is a custom that you had to take it every week if you lived there—every Saturday night. And, so we were there, and we said, "Well that would be fine—we’d take a Finnish bath." And so you go in. They have these shed—I would call them sheds that are built along the Lakes—we were always on the Lake—so many beautiful lakes in Finland. It’s a beautiful, beautiful country with beautiful trees and beautiful lakes. And we would go in to the bathhouse and strip out of every thing. And, women in one house and the men in the other house and, of course, I’ve forgotten now, I used to know the—how hot it was when you went in. It was just horrible, but it was very, very hot, but you were on the lower level. It was on three levels—three great big levels that were built in. And, imagine what it was like when you got up under the ceiling. Well, it was just terrible, and you thought you were going to die. I thought I would die in a Finnish bathhouse—that’s where I thought I was going to meet my end. Interviewer: (Laughs.) Wenzel: And old ladies, peasant ladies, dressed in peasant garments and with a scarf around their heads (laughs), I guess to take the perspiration, would bring in their leaves—the branches of birch leaves, and the birch leaves are what they would pound you with. And, they’d bring in these big branches of birch leaves like this—big, big branches of them, and they’d pound you with these. You’d lie on your back and they’d pound you up and down with these birch leaves. And, you could imagine, as hot and sweaty as you were, here they’d go pounding you. Then, you’d turn on the other side (laughs) and they’d pound you. And so then after so long a time (laughs) when you thought you couldn’t stand it any longer, you’d move to the next level and they’d continue with the birch leaves pounding you. Then, on the top level, then when you could stand it no longer and you decided you’d had enough, then you were supposed to out and jump in the lake—ice cold, they said (laughs), so not many of us were brave enough for that (laughs)! A few did, but not many. But, that was quite an experience. But they do that up there, that’s their custom. They have to have a Finnish bath (laughs). Interviewer: Could you go there now, do you think, and get the same thing? Wenzel: I don’t know. I wonder. I think you probably could. I imagine that, that far up there, I imagine you could (laughs). But that was, of course, a great deal north of Helsiinki but, but it was quite an interesting custom. That’s what we enjoyed was learning the customs of the different countries. Interviewer: In some of the other countries, do you remember anything that was . . . Wenzel: Well, the German people, of course, are so interesting. We loved them. And, what we saw was the good part. We didn’t see the bad part, but, oh, all the countries were interesting in their, in their way. The Italians the same way, we enjoyed Venice—that was different. If you live on canals all the time and had to ride in gondolas, it’s interesting—different, smelly, dirty (laughs). Yes, but it’s interesting, and to have all your things transported by gondola, you know, no other way to get in or out, so that’s, that was an interesting part, too. (Clears throat.) But we enjoyed all those special things that we got to do. And, as I say, the German students were so great to take us around, and to nightspots, and to take us dancing ,and they had lovely parties for us. And, it was very festive. You know, you didn’t know there was a war—that there was anything to be worried about, except, maybe when we wanted to go into a museum. We wanted to go into the Dresden Museum one day, and they made arrangements to take us. We got there and it was closed. Because Hitler wanted his young troops, these boys, 10—11 years old to march. They were all in uniform. He had everybody in uniform, you know, and they were having to parade, and so we had to see the parade instead. So, that’s the way they handled things, but so that was an example of the way it was kind of frightening to see. We were in the midst of a gay feeling that everyone was having—a kind of euphoria, because of the (Olympic) games. And, the bright decorations, and it was really—Berlin was decorated in a beautiful way, but there was still that undercurrent. Interviewer: So, the Olympic games hadn’t been in that area for a while, but they were in ’36 when you went there? Wenzel: After many years, that’s where they were, in Berlin. So that, of course, it was our big hour that we had looked forward to so much. And, so that was about midway into the trip, which was great. We had tickets—we’d had our tickets a long time for the opening and closing ceremonies, but it was almost impossible to get tickets for the other things, the other events that we found. But the games began at 4 o’clock in the afternoon. And so we went, all of us together out in the first—well, we had taxis or we had, I’ve forgotten—probably on a train part of the way to out to the Reich’s Field, the sport field as they called it, the stadium. And, we have those pictures of the stadium—it was a huge oval. An interesting thing about that stadium, it was not bombed during World War II. It still stands, and in the Wall Street Journal, not many days ago, there was an article as to what they’re going to do with it. You see, there’s that taint to it that people feel—some feel, because it was at the time of Hitler it should be destroyed, but it’s a fine stadium. It seated 110,000, I believe, and then there are others who think, no, it should be used. It should be used in some way. I was privileged to see the stadium twice in my life—I must tell you about the second time. In 1972, I believe it was, John and I went to a convention in Dusseldorf, Germany with another couple from here. And I said to them, "You know, I’d just love to go back to East Berlin. Would you all be interested if we see if we can get in to East Berlin?" This was before it was open at all, and so they said, "Well, if you can get us, get us in there, if we can get the trip lined up, this extra little trip." Because we had a couple of free days in there from Dusseldorf, and we thought we could take one of ‘em. Flyin’ in to Berlin was real close, and so I went down to Triple A and asked the woman there in charge at the time if she thought it was possible and she said, "I just got back from there." She said, "Yes, I can tell you just exactly how to do it if you want me to line up something, I will." So that was wonderful, and she told us that we would have to fly in, you see, we were going—what, just four of us. We couldn’t take much money. She said, "Don’t take any money—extra money. Be very careful, you know, and I’ll tell you who to contact because you certainly have to be careful." We--no one knew we were going. We didn’t even tell anybody, we just started out—the four of us (laughs). Well, I--we think now how silly we were. Listen, do you know Mr. Bounds who lives here? Interviewer: I’ve met. . . . Wenzel: He and his wife and John and I went. Interviewer: Ah. Wenzel: Anyway, that—I have to skip to 1972 a moment to tell you about this stadium because it was still standing, and we went out there in a taxi. We—they told us to go to West Berlin first, and that’s where we got our taxi, and this travel agent had made arrangements. We went to the big hotel, you see, West Germany was aglow—it was beautiful at the time we were there, just beautiful. It had everything. Now. . . . Interviewer: In the 70s? Wenzel: Yes, and, in the 70s. And then on the other side of the wall, it was so terrible. They had nothing. We went to West Berlin into this beautiful hotel, and, sure enough, went up to the desk, and I told them my name, and I said we had made arrangements here, and so they said, "A taxi driver has been alerted. He will be here at such and such a time." So, in just a little while this man arrived, and spoke very good English, and had a nice, clean, taxi, and he was to take us. He said, "What do you want to see. Where do you want to go?" And, of course, we said, "The wall—we want to see the wall, and we want to go—is there anything we can’t see. What about a department store—are there any stores?" He said, "Yes, I’ll take you to a department store. You will have to spend $5 apiece before you can get out." Well, we didn’t take very much money because you—see, we had to go through "Check-point Charlie." Interviewer: Um-hmm. Wenzel: And that was our hazard. And, so that was quite, quite an experience, and we were searched mightily there and questioned by the guards, but because we said we were just tourists and Americans. We had our passports—they took our American passports. Wouldn’t let us keep ‘em. But, . . . . Interviewer: Were you scared? Wenzel: Yes! Oh, that was terrible, but we gave them up, and so they took our money—all except, well, we kept our five dollars and a little change, but they took more money. We’d brought a little more, of course. Had to—the men did. And, so they searched us when we first got in the airport, I meant to tell you. We were frisked to see if we were carrying anything. And, so anyway, but we finally got to "Check-point Charlie" and went into, well, the department store and it was the most depressing thing I’d ever seen in my life. There wasn’t anything. We thought we could spend our $5 there. There wasn’t a thing. There was so little and it was such coarse, rough clothing, and such poor things. Not a smile did you see on anyone’s face, not a smile. Oh, it was the most depressing place I’ve ever seen in my life. And so we spent, I guess, an hour there. And, then, we went on and, of course, the wall was all beyond any thing I could ever describe to you. Wreaths where people had been shot and killed, you know, along the wall, and it was just tragic. But, anyway, we finally got to the stadium, and got out in the rain—stood there and looked at it, and it was whole, it was just fine, and I said to them, "Well, I just can’t believe that they would spare that." And we never knew how that would be—it happened to be spared—I never heard, but, anyway, it wasn’t bothered. And, so it was quite a site. It was a very emotional experience to be there again in such different circumstances. But [in 1936], the [Olympic] games were marvelous, and we were there in Berlin for about 10 days. And had a wonderful, wonderful experience there. We went to the opera. We did everything and were, as I say, were wined and dined very royally by the students. Interviewer: Back in 1936? Wenzel: In ’36, yes. And it was a very gay city, my, my, my! It was a beautiful city. Interviewer: Did you notice at that particular time—were you able to visit the same locations when you went back in the 1970s? Wenzel: The Brandenberg Gate stands, of course, they didn’t destroy that. That was standing. There was nothing else remaining really in East Berlin that I recognized other than that. I wouldn’t have known. There were a few little shops along Unter DerLinden, you know the main thoroughfare, but, no, I wouldn’t have known any of it, only the gate. Interview: Back in 1936, the attitudes of the people on the Eastern side. Wenzel: Well, there wasn’t an Eastern side then. Interview: So there was no East then, everyone was. . . . Wenzel: It was one Germany. Um-hmm, yes, but when you think how they divided the country, you see, it was so—they just wouldn’t allow any communication, you know, terrible, and such a contrast. The glittering city on the west was beautiful in the 70s when we were there—beautiful. They had everything—shop windows loaded with beautiful things just as always, and you’d go down the road here past "Check-point Charlie" and this horrible wall. We found a place we could climb up on the wall, and so we did. There are steps up, you could get up there and you could see the guard post all the way along. And terrible places where people had been shot trying to escape. Interviewer: So all atrocities may not have been just in a particular short span of years. That can happen years later over something else? Wenzel: (Clears throat.) I suppose so, but it was, it was terrible there, and in the 70s especially to see. Interviewer: Would you like to visit there again now. . . . Wenzel: Oh, yes, I’d love to someday and never will, because we don’t travel abroad now—we’re too old, but it was wonderful to see it again. But, the stadium was beautiful, and the picture is such a lovely picture from the program--my souvenir program that I have, and it, it was so different from the way they build the stadiums nowadays. In that halfway down from the top was an area where they had the places to eat—the eating shops, and that was where you could eat, and there was no other place, and there were shops, souvenir shops—pictures of Berlin, pictures of Hitler, pictures of the German countryside, and that sort of thing. You could buy your little souvenirs there, but it wasn’t just a mass of shops, and eating places, and all the other things that go along with modern Olympics, like we know them in this country at least. But the stadium was very lovely, and stretched from east to west and there was a big flight of stairs at either side. And, the runner came in one side, and ran across, around the stadium. Interviewer: With a torch? Wenzel: And, yes, with a torch and then up the other side to where the tripodal stood that held the fire, and lighted the torch there and disappeared. And it was down these steps by the torch that Hitler and his entourage came for the beginning, for the opening ceremonies. Interviewer: So you knew that he was going to be there? Did you—was there much anxiety or eagerness? Wenzel: Oh, yes, hoping we’d get to see him, and, of course, I was so lucky to be—to have a seat so close to these steps that led up to the tripodal. There were four girls that had gone to Wichita U. We were the younger ones of the group, and they had seated us there. I don’t know how that happened, but we happened to be together, and we were right there, right close to the steps. That’s how we got this picture. It was so amazing that we could get close enough to really see him well, so. And he was handsome! Interviewer: Was he? Wenzel: Yes! My father thought I’d lost my (laughs) senses when I told him that. No, he was, in his uniform, you know, and all the regalia, and, oh, they had such beautiful uniforms, and so that’s how I had to see him close up, because you couldn’t get near him, you know, any other time. Interviewer: He was surrounded by a lot of . . . Wenzel: Oh, yes. Interviewer: . . body guards? Wenzel: Oh, yes, entourage, entourage was always around him, and so the festivities really began after he came into the stadium. First they had the torch and then they—well, first they had the mayor of Berlin. I don’t know whether I didn’t mention that but the mayor of Berlin, and his attendants also came—marched down with Hitler. In a very dignified manner, and, of course, the people just went wild, "Heil Hitler! Heil Hitler!" and gave their Natze salute, and, then after that, when he was seated in his box and they were all in their places, then they had a cannon salute, and four sailors in sailors’ uniforms took charge of the salute, and then they let loose from one side of the stadium a lot of doves. And, then, after that, that was very effective, of course, and then after that they had a runner come in dressed in the old costume of a Greek runner, and he was carrying an olive branch, and he carried that and gave it to Hitler. And, that was quite significant, and then the flag-bearers formed a semi-circle in front of Hitler and they sang the national anthem, and gave the Athenian oath. And that started the ceremonies and the parade of states, which was so effective. And in those days I was so interested in the one—the comparison with the games in Atlanta, Ga.—they just all kind of came in, strung in. There was no order, you know, if you know from watching it. They didn’t seem to have any strict precision or order that they came in. At that time, everybody was in strict formation, which looked a little prettier—more effective, I thought. Anyway, that was the Parade of States. And, that always, of course, is a very moving experience for everybody. And that’s when they all saluted, stood and saluted and carried on with the Hitler salute. Interviewer: All of the incoming countries would salute to Hitler? Wenzel: They did except America, and America did not. They didn’t dip our flag, umm-hmm. But the other countries did—we were the only one that didn’t, that’s right. Interviewer: Was there any big to-do about the fact that we did not dip the flag? Wenzel: No. We noticed it—we certainly did, uh-huh, because that was significant. We were mighty glad they didn’t (laughs). But, then the games—the closing ceremonies then were for the children and they had 10,000 children singing and dancing at one time, and that was—that took place in the evening, first evening, and they sang and they danced and did their traditional German folk songs and folk dances and it was very lovely—beautiful and that closed the first day’s ceremonies, but Hitler and his entourage left after the opening, yes, they left. For the evening ceremonies and that’s the last time we saw him that day. But, he came back the next day. We did see him when Jessie Owens who ran, I couldn’t forget his name, you know, the black runner who won the gold medal, and when he ran, Hitler and his entourage got up and left promptly before he was awarded his gold medal. They wouldn’t sit for that. He didn’t believe in that, you know. And so that was moving. Everybody certainly noticed that. Interviewer: Was that because he was black or because he was from the United States? Wenzel: Black, um-hmm, yes. No, because he was black, um-hmm, um-hmm. And, of course, in that day there were no women, you see, no women took part—were all men, and so that was interesting, too. Interviewer: Were there very many women in attendance at the Olympics? Wenzel: Yes, oh yes, many, many tourists, many women, um-hmm. People that tourists made that their, one of their stopping spots, you know, if they were going to Europe that summer. Interviewer: Did they have restrictions on women attending? Were their certain areas? Wenzel: Women could not be admitted to the village where the athletes stayed. But I waived my red plaid scarf when our group came by. Harold Manning from Wichita U., you know, ran, and he knew that I was there, and I’d known him in school, so I waved. We just said, "We’ll wave my scarf like crazy and maybe he’ll see us," and he did. And so we got in touch with him and he said, "Come over and see the village. Wouldn’t you like to? Now, you can’t go in any of the rooms, but you can come into the courtyard and you can come into the lounge, one of the lounges, and see. You’ll get an idea, but I think you might enjoy it." So I took several of my friends and we went over and that was, that was a wonderful experience because not very many people were ever invited to go there, and I was tickled to death that we could do that. It was a big, big complex—another, really another village all to itself—white tile, white buildings with red tile roofs, and they had separate rooms. Fifty-two separate rooms—great, big rooms including a kitchen for each country, and for each delegation of athletes, you see. So they could have their own food, and their own quarters, and that was interesting. And we arrived, I think it was the Belgium group that was arriving when we got there, so we got to see them welcomed, and that was fun, in the outer courtyard. But women couldn’t go inside and see any of the rooms inside. But, other that, the women were welcomed every place. Interviewer: I’m going to switch the tape right now. Wenzel: OK, thank you. Interviewer: So, after you visited the Olympic Village, were there any other things that were outstanding that you noticed about the Olympics? Wenzel: Oh, so many things were different from what we’re used to in the modern Olympics. It was not the commercial show that it is today. It was the glory of the athletes, and more than anything else. That sort of impressed us all, and that’s what I think of when I see the new—the modern Olympics. There’s so much—well, I guess it’s media attention and everything else that has changed. Interviewer: Commercialism? Wenzel: Yes, so much commercialism that they didn’t have at that time, of course. At least, in Berlin, they didn’t (clears throat), but other than that, I don’t well, it was just all spectacular, the whole thing. They had done a marvelous job preparing for tourists and for giving people a wonderful show. It really was just marvelous. The athletes were so good, and so outstanding in every way. But, we were so proud of Jesse Owens, the black man from Alabama, um-hmm, and Jesse was a remarkable man, and Harold Manning, of course, whether you win anything or not, just to get to run in the Olympics is the honor, and he was so pleased that he got to run. He didn’t get anything, of course, but he, it was wonderful, and wonderful to see somebody from Wichita run, and then, there was a man from Emporia, also, who ran, and it was fun to see him. But it was quite, quite an experience. One that you don’t forget. Interviewer: How about the trip home? Wenzel: After we left Finland, we went across the North Sea, and traveled back to England for the trip home. We had a very, very rough trip across the North Sea (laughs) and most of the people were seasick as people usually are who travel there. By that time, we were tired and ready to come home. It was September by the time we got home and it was time to come home. But my school allowed me to come in late for school and that was nice. It was a very pleasant crossing, a little rougher than we had going over. It’s often true as you come this way and it was and in September sometimes, you know, the storms begin. So we had a little storm on the trip, but it was fine. It was a big ship, and we weren’t too concerned if we didn’t get seasick and we didn’t. We used to say we’d walk home by way of New Orleans if we had to. You felt like it some times (laughs). But it was a really nice experience. Interviewer: So, what was your family’s reception when you got back? Wenzel: Oh, yes, that was wonderful and we had a wonderful time, I’ll tell you, it was a real reunion. Nothing looks as good as home. I always say that the best part of any trip is coming home (laughs). John and my mother and father met me. My sisters and friends came later. It was wonderful! After our return from the trip, John and I were married the following October. That was in 1937, and then it wasn’t long after that that World War II came about. We were living in Tulsa at the time, and he was with the legal department of Shell Oil Company, and they kept him as long as they could. But we did not have a family, and so at the time that he came up for possible deferment, there were three lawyers from Shell that were taken, but it was toward the end of the war. It was very late in the war. They were all sent to Fort Custer, Michigan. He was up there for basic training and then went to Fort Sam Houston, Texas for his officers’ training. After that, he was sent to the Philippines, and spent two years in the Philippines. After he went overseas, one evening I was with my family in the Innes Tea Room. Do you remember the Innes Tea Room? Interviewer: I’ve heard a lot about it. Wenzel: Yes, well, that was the place you went to dine in Wichita in those days. While we were having family dinner we met Dean Wilke from the university. Miss Wilke said, "Well, I didn’t know you were back." And I said, "Yes, I’m here for the duration. I moved back into my home." (We had kept our home in Wichita on North Battin, and had leased it while we were gone because we knew the war was eminent, and we thought that was wise, I told her.) She said, "What are you going to do now?" She said, " Dr. Jardine was asking about you the other day if you were here and I didn’t know you were back." And I said, "Well, I’ll probably teach school." That’s what I had been offered was a teaching job.at, She said, "Well, I tell you before you do, can I tell Dr. Jardine it’s alright to call you now and talk to you in a few days?" And, I said, "Well, it’s alright with me (laughs) for him to call me." And so he called—his secretary called and wanted to know if I would come out and talk with him. So I did and he said, "I think," you know, he was the--had been secretary of agriculture. He was a good politician and a good man for time for the school I think. , and he said when I got out there he—we had a nice visit, and he said "I think it’s time we got a real alumni organization going here." They’d never had a real alumni organization for them, and he said "I’d like to have you come out and start it. Would you consider it?" And, he said, "We can’t pay you what you could get at Boeing, or . . ." I said, "Well, I don’t intend to go to Boeing." I said, "I don’t know. Let me think about it a little bit. I think that sounds interesting." And he said, "Well, I want you to kind of be the hostess, and I have some things I want you to do, and if you’d consider it." So, anyway, he what he talked about sounded interesting to me. I thought well, that would be, I’d be. . . . And, he said, "I want you to make contacts with the boys when they come off their R & R [Rest and Recuperation]. They always came to the university. They just made a bee-line for back to school, so, anyway, I thought well that would be fun. I’d be doing something for the war effort and maybe that would be a good thing, so I decided to do it and had a wonderful two years there. And, the first sign that I had was to, he said, "First, I want you to go to KU and spend a day with the Alumni Association up there, and talk with them and get there ideas, and I want you to spend another day over at Manhattan at K-State and talk to them and get their ideas." And so I did that, and we got our little, we just had a little outer office that one of the professors that. . . but it was right across from Dr. Jardine’s office. And so that was handy and so he said, "I’d like you to be there." And so that’s what we did and I had a desk and a telephone and a typewriter (laughs) and that was it. We set up shop. And so we couldn’t we had to have a filing cabinet. I was telling the girls out at the university not long ago about it, and a great big, we wanted a great big metal filing cabinet for our card files—that’s where we had to start out, because they didn’t even know how many alumnae we had or anything at that time. They were all—they had never been put in one place. So that was our first job. Well, they gave me a couple of students to help type and we got busy typing out the cards, and, but we had to have a filing cabinet and you know in the war, you couldn’t get anything made of metal. You just couldn’t—couldn’t buy anything as a matter of fact. But, one of the—the President of the alumnae association told me one day that he was up in the, in the Federal Land Bank Offices, I think it was. Anyway, someplace—but one of the big offices where they were making some changes in their office, and they had a file cabinet that they wanted to sell. It was a great big metal one, and he said, "Why don’t you go down and look at it. I bet that may be what you want."
So I went down and, oh, it was just perfect, and, do you know, they used that ‘til they moved into their fancy quarters (laughs). Interviewer: All that time? Wenzel: All that time it was used. But, anyway, so then he said, Dr. Jardine said to me, "Now the next thing I want you to do, you know, there’s such a disagreement among educators at the time, I think that students are going to come back to college. Going to want to come back to college. I feel they are." And he said, "There are those that think they won’t," but he said, "I want you to work out a survey, and I want you to send it to all of our people in service. See what they say. Let’s just get a feel of it." So that was interesting. I worked out a survey and sent it out to them and got replies from everywhere, and, honestly, it was just endearing to see how many said their hope was to come back and finish their college, or to get more college. They felt like, you know, they were so far behind. They needed more schooling and so they certainly, wholeheartedly said they intended to come back. Now we wondered would that work through, but that was the result, and he said, "Now, I want you to stand back." He was delighted so I—he said, "You send that now to KU and Manhattan, oh, I don’t know where all, and let them see." He said, "That’s what I think, I think they’re going to come back." He had two sons-in-law who were both in service, and so he was especially interested in the war effort, of course. And so that was interesting, very interesting to do. I enjoyed that part of it and then, too, everyday, there wasn’t a day passed that some soldier and his young bride, quite often, or one or two of them together home on leave would come in and wanted to, wanted to talk. And I had when it came time to sell football tickets—we built the stadium (laughs). That was another thing I did. He said, "I think it is time to build a stadium and we’re going to call it Vets. And, the name was changed. I mean, I felt so (laughs) bad about it because we had—everyone had given their money for that reason. Interviewer: To Veteran’s Field at WSU? Wenzel: Yes, um-hmm. Wichita University, you see. And it was, of course, wasn’t much of a stadium. It was—we laughed—we didn’t have lights. They were on a pole—they were on poles—they weren’t very, very good lights and but we did have some lights. They brought a man here from out-of-state someplace who was a professional fundraiser, and we worked awfully hard to raise some money--everybody working together. And so we did get Veteran’s Field built, and that was something else that interesting. So, it a busy two years and interesting two years. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Interviewer: Well, what caused you to leave there? Wenzel: Well, then John came home in two years and so I, —we didn’t know whether we’d—we did move back to Tulsa. As a matter of fact, he still had his job, you see. And, so, we moved back to Tulsa, but, he was like so many of them who came back restless, and they felt they needed to move on—to make a change, and so he felt he was ready to go into business for himself. So that’s what he did then—came up to Wichita. Back to our home in Wichita. And went into business for himself. So, that’s the reason I gave it up. But, I did enjoy it out there, but it was lots of fun and I enjoyed it very, very much, and it was a wonderful thing for me to get to do while he was away—enjoyed it so much. And, then, so since then, we’ve always lived in Wichita. Interviewer: So, after you got back to Wichita, what did you do then? Wenzel: Well I , since I was not working any longer outside the home, I taught—began teaching in the weekday, what at that time we would call "weekday Bible School" in my church. We had students from Park School, which you see, that’s a downtown church, and, so we had we got kiddies from, from Park School, and taught them on Wednesdays—every Wednesday—and I did that, and then our hobby for the two of us in our marriage has always been music. My husband has always been a soloist and very musical, and so I became—I’ve always been interested in music and was very important in our life at home, and always has been for me. So, I began singing in the choir with him, and we sang—I sang in the choir for twenty years. He sang in fif. . . he’d always sung in choirs, but I guess he sang for over 50 years, but I sang for about twenty. Anyway, they asked me, --the man who was head of the archives said, "We don’t have much about the music of the church. Would you consider writing a book about the history of music at the church?" And, I said, "Well, if you won’t push me for time, if I’d have plenty of time to research it?" And, so he said, "There’s no hurry if you’ll just do it, that’d be wonderful." So, anyway, I spent five years researching it, and digging out pictures that we could use and so forth. And was it ’87, is that what it was? Is that the year? Yes, it was—the year we went on our—, the—I finished it and had it published, and the hardest thing of the whole thing, they said to me, "And what will the cover be like?" "Why," I said, I don’t know anything about covers--somebody else will have to do that." They said, "Oh, no. You publish the book—that’s your call—what do you want for the cover?" Well, I’ll show it the cover—I’ll show it to you, and I thought, my-oh-my, what does one have for a cover, so that gave me more trouble than anything, I think. But we finally came across with something. So that was an interesting experience, because I like to write—I think it’s fun. Intervierwer: Do you? Wenzel: Yes, I do. I really like to, and I took lots of journalism in school, and I enjoyed it. But it’s fun, so that was a lot of work, but a lot of fun, and I think a contribution. Hope so! Interviewer: Well, this conversation has been very interesting to me, and I know it will be to a lot of other people, too. Wenzel: I hope so. Interviewer: It will be. Wenzel: Thank you for letting me do it. Copyright
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